並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E6%91%A9%E7%88%BE%E8%AD%89%E5%88%B8%E6%8A%95%E9%A1%A7/20220303-%E9%83%AD%E5%93%B2%E6%A6%AE%E5%88%86%E6%9E%90%E5%B8%AB%E8%88%AA%E9%81%8B%E8%82%A1%E5%86%8D%E7%98%8B%E7%8B%82-q8vKuaj3zNb/